Guardian Thursday February 12, 2004 Medical
evidence does not support suicide by Dr
Before we go to our first guest, who Im honoured to have,
well our guest for this hour, I wanted to just remind you that
Dr David Kelly was the head of the Level-4 Porton Down Bio-weapons
lab in Wiltshire, England. And he was then the head British
weapons inspector whod been pro-war.
Saddam doesnt have weapons
of mass destruction.
And Tony Blair mis-used my assessment.
He told British and US colleagues that `Im gonna
be murdered and found dead in the woods if I dont shut
This is now mainstream news. Three top doctors have gone
public who have looked at the autopsy results and say he was
clearly, he clearly did not commit suicide, and we have that
posted at Infowars.comand
a lot of people are starting to go public on this.
There were rumours of this last week that somebody who had
been inside the British government had sources who said that
they could confirm that Dr David Kelly had been killed, but
the folks that got that story, I guess didnt take time
out to go ahead and get in contact with the individual who
was bringing forward this information himself. Weve
done that and hes coming up here in just a few minutes
and were so honoured to have him with us here on the
show. Hes Michael Shrimpton and Michael Shrimpton has
a long bio. I did some research on him over the weekend. Michael
Shrimpton, of course, is a national security lawyer, that
is barrister, in government matters. Hes written for
the Journal for International Security Affairs. He has given
advice and briefed the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
thats the US Senate. Hes given speeches and consulted
all over western Europe and the United States. And of course
hes been an invited guest of the State Department.
So hes a mainstream guy, and I was very impressed talking
to him. Were about to break for a quick three minute
break, come back and join a bunch of stations that carry news
during this segment. And Ill briefly re-cap who our
guest is and well go to him. Michael Shrimpton is on
the line with us, and again were gonna break and come
back, and he has some bombshell information for you from his
sources inside MI5 and MI6. Again, hes a national security
lawyer, that is barrister, who has advised the United States
Senate Intelligence Committee. So you wanna have your tape
recorders going, you wanna call your friends and family and
tell them to tune into this show. And one of our great writers,
Simon, is going to have an article written for us by this
evening that will be posted on the websites as well.
Were going to have an article this evening on the websites.
Itll appear first on PrisonPlanet.com and I wanna thank
Simon, and I wanna thank Rowena and Paul Watson and all the
folks that have been working on this story and for getting
us this guest. And again hes Michael Shrimpton and a
national security lawyer or barrister, and hes written
for major anti-terrorism journals. He has given his expert
advice to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for
the US Senate, and the bio goes on and on. Hes also
been involved in a lot of prominent, high profile cases in
England. I came across that in my research on him. And hes
a really nice fella, during the break I was talking to him
and I said `Yknow, I hope you dont end up in the
woods like Dr David Kelly, and he said `Well, no, by
going public you protect yourself.
And thats the truth. For other government whistleblowers,
telling the truth is what protects you. If you covertly leak
something, thats whats dangerous. So he protects
himself by going on air. And obviously because of all of his
sources hes a great source for all of us.
Michael, good to have you on the show with us.
Michael Shrimpton: [inaudible]
AJ: Just, for folks around the world who arent
very familiar with Dr David Kelly, hard to believe people
arent, could you re-cap who he was, what happened to
him and then from your sources you even know down to the specifics
of how they killed him and from your sources who was behind
the killing. Can you just go through it for us?
MS: Yes, David Kelly was probably the most respected
microbiologist in the United Kingdom. Certainly one who specialised
in weapons of mass destruction. And he was the head of our
main WMD laboratory at Porton Down in Wiltshire. He was very
involved in the dismantling, verification of the dismantling
of the Soviet WMD programmes after the end of the Cold War.
He spent some time inside what was the bad old USSR. He was
the senior British inspector on UNSCOM, the UN mission inside
Iraq. He spent some considerable time in Baghdad. He was working
very closely with our overseas intelligence service, MI6 or
the Secret Intelligence Service, and he was a major, high-value,
British intelligence asset. He was a good man. Decorated,
awarded the CMG, Commander of St Michael and St George. Highly
regarded and well liked too within the British intelligence
community, and also respected in the United States.
AJ: And then suddenly Tony Blairs smearing him
in the press and he ends up dead, and the witnesses according
to the London Times and their publications, saw four men in
black uniforms standing around him, they run off and `Oh,
its a suicide. Go over the whole controversy of,
I mean Dr David Kelly was a hawk for the war, but he wasnt
going to put out false intelligence. Go through that for folks
that missed out on it.
MS: Well, yes. David Kelly briefed in a British BBC
journalist called Andrew Gilligan and also spoke to another
journalist for the BBC Televisions Newsnight programme,
and he briefed in both journalists along the lines that the
case for, the WMD case for war with Iraq had been exaggerated.
Theres a lot of dispute about exactly what was said
and what wasnt said. The BBC Today programme which is
the leading radio current affairs programme led with a story
from Andrew Gilligan, which didnt name David Kelly as
Andrews source. Now we know that David Kelly was, and
my own intelligence sources confirmed that before the BBC
itself confirmed it on Sunday 20th July. David Kelly was outed
in the media, big dispute as to who authorised his name to
be given to the media, and he was asked to appear before a
committee in the House of Commons. There was a lot of controversy
about what the government had been told, how truthful a dossier
that they had prepared on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction
was, and shortly after he gave evidence to the House of Commons,
he was found dead on Friday 18th July of last year. He was
found dead. There is a dispute over exactly where he was found.
According to the official version of events he was found
dead in a copse, or a wood, at a place called Harrowdown Hill,
between the village where he lived and the River Thames. But
the forensic tent, its noticeable, Alex, that the forensic
tents that were set up by the local police force, Thames Valley
Police, were actually set up in the field. Why you would have
someone killed in the woods and have the police tent over
the scene of the crime set up in the field, no-one has yet
been able to explain to my satisfaction.
Now the government were blamed for causing the death, but
the way the government were criticised was this: that they
had caused his name to be leaked to the media. That had put
him under intolerable pressure and he had allegedly committed
suicide. The initial media reports all went with suicide and
the mainstream media in the UK is still reporting it as a
suicide. The government responded very quickly and brought
in a Law Lord, Lord Hutton, whod previously been Lord
Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. And the Hutton Inquiry
has very recently reported. Lord Hutton didnt challenge
the suicide verdict, there was no cross-examination of witnesses
before the Hutton Inquiry as to the cause of death. It was
assumed that it was suicide and the BBC were essentially blamed
for poor reporting, the government were let off the hook.
The Hutton Report, Im sorry to say, is widely seen
as a whitewash and its been rubbished. A very senior
British Intelligence officer recently retired, a Lieutenant
Colonel, Crispin Black, who was on the Defence Intelligence
Staff until 2002, has basically described the report as a
`laughing stock and I respectfully agree.
Now Ive seen major polls where over two thirds of the
British people believe its a complete fraud. I mean
obviously Tony Blair hires one of his cronies to come in and
say `Oh you didnt do anything wrong and then even
thats a whitewash of a larger whitewash because obviously
according to the medical reports, the coroners report,
the doctors that have looked at it, the suicide verdict
thats a fraud itself and lets go into your sources
and what really happened to Dr David Kelly.
MS: Absolutely, although I wouldnt be allowed
to say that Tony Blair had hired a judge, you understand that
in England we dont hire judges [chuckles]. The judge
is on the State payroll anyway and I wouldnt want to
be thought of as suggesting that anybody had put a little
extra funds Lord Huttons way. Im quite sure Lord
Hutton took no extra payment.
AJ: Well what Im saying is, is that obviously
Huttons been involved with whats been called whitewashes
in the past.
MS: The Report, Im sorry to say, with respect
to Lord Hutton, the Report is a complete whitewash.
AJ: Well I mean they take, I mean you have a government
institution whitewashing for another government institution.
MS: Well exactly. This is the problem with appointing
senior judges to hold inquiries. Theres been a lot of
adverse comment in England. The senior judge is, by definition,
part of the establishment. Its very difficult to judge,
of course, if he whitewashes the government, everybody says
`Well it is a whitewash. If he blames the government,
well its asking too much of a senior judge to go around
blaming the government. Its not what senior judges do.
AJ: I mean what do you expect? I mean here we have
it where Janet Reno hires somebody to investigate Waco, I
mean she literally appoints the investigator. We have Bush
controlling the 9/11 panel, I mean its ridiculous. But
getting into the specifics of Dr David Kellys clear
murder, lets go over that.
MS: Well, absolutely. Now on Saturday 19th July, David
was murdered on the 17th, on Saturday the 19th, within 48
hours of the murder, I was contacted by a British intelligence
officer who told me hed been murdered. That didnt
take me by surprise, I was suspicious of the suicide theory
from the word go. Now that source told me hed done some
digging and discovered that, he didnt name names but
he discovered that it had been known about in Whitehall prior
to the 17th July that David Kelly was going to be taken down.
Now normally with a suicide, Alex, you appreciate that we
dont like people knowing in advance. If people know
in advance of the death, that normally points away from suicide.
MS: [Chuckles] Exactly. Now a lot of work has been
done since the murder, and theres been particularly
a great deal of medical research. Now its absolutely
clear that David was murdered. The suicide theory just doesnt
hold water at all. The official version of events is that
he took some Co-Proxamol tablets. Now Co-Proxamol is available
in England only by prescription. There is a problem with that
because there is no evidence that David Kelly was ever prescribed
Co-Proxamol. Now Co-Proxamol I think is available in the United
States, its a combination of Dextropropoxythene and
paracetamol in a ratio of 1 to 10. Its not a very powerful
painkiller and the level of Co-Proxamol in the blood stream
according to the official toxicology report was about one
third, i.e. not enough to kill him. Now 29 tablets were allegedly
missing, or were missing, from a packet of Co-Proxamol found
by the body. The problem is that there is only one fifth of
a tablet in the stomach and theres no evidence of substantial
vomiting. There was a little bit of vomit found on the body
but not much. And theres no analysis done of the material.
The stomach contents do not support the suggestion that he
ingested 29 Co-Proxamol tablets. Interestingly, the initial
media reports, and when we look at staged suicides or political
assassinations, I find it very useful to concentrate on the
early media reports because if there is a cover-up, usually
the cover-up kicks in after 12, 24, 36 hours. The first media
reports are very often the most accurate, particularly if
theyre coming from local news organisations. The early
media reports made no mention of a bottle of water. The theory
is, Alex, that he took these Co-Proxamol tablets having set
out on a walk, in the course of which he was going to commit
suicide, and took with him a bottle of water to swallow the
tablets. Problem no mention in early media reports
of any bottle of water. That detail was only added in after
a group of concerned people in England, professionals called
the `Kelly Group had made the point and it was already
out into the open. Now, the suicide version of events cant
be right. He was found with one wrist slashed and the ulnar
artery, which is the artery
AJ: Tell you what, weve got a break. Were
gonna come back and go over the circumstantial evidence and
then your sources inside intelligence that say `Hey,
we got the word he was about to be killed and then who killed
him. Well talk about that too.
AJ: Alright, this is a quick segment. Weve got
a longer segment coming up. Plenty of time to go over this
evidence with our guest, and our guest would like to take
calls so later in the interview, if youd like to talk
to our guest the toll-free number to join us is 1-800 259
Were talking to Michael Shrimpton and hes a national
security barrister in England. He has given testimony and
advice to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for
the US Senate, and hes obviously very knowledgeable
about intelligence and the activities of intelligence agencies.
He has a lot of sources in MI5 and MI6. You just heard him
talk about one source inside British intelligence that said
they got word that Kelly was about to be killed by the government
a week or so before he actually died. I want to go back into
that in more detail coming up here in a few minutes. But Mr
Shrimpton was then going over the material evidence of the
murder and youve gotten to the point of the slitting
of the wrist.
MS: Yeah, he clearly didnt slit his own wrist.
The idea that he exsanguinated, that he died from haemorrhaging,
he bled out from a cut to one wrist only, to the ulnar artery,
is just a nonsense Alex. Firstly the artery that was cut was
the ulnar artery which is more difficult to reach, its
on the little finger side of the hand. Its deeper than
the radial artery. Why go for an artery deep in the wrist
when you can slit an artery much closer to the surface of
the skin. Thats the first problem.
The second problem, he, according to the autopsy report,
he severed or transected the artery. But once you transect
an artery, we have something called vaso-constriction. The
artery retracts and that promotes clotting. Its very
difficult to bleed out if you sever one artery only.
AJ: And I would second that with David Halpin, a doctor,
a prominent orthopaedic surgeon, as well as Stephen Frost,
specialist in diagnostics. I mean theres a whole bunch
of top-level doctors saying `This is a complete fraud.
MS: Exactly. One doctor went around promoting the official
version of events and attacked these doctors in the Guardian
newspaper in England and talked about slashing `wrists.
Well David Kelly on the official version of events didnt
slash his wrists, plural, he slashed one wrist only. Its
highly unusual. Firstly, wrist slashing is not an effective
method of committing sucide. One of the reasons people do
it in a bath of hot water
AJ: That keeps the veins open
Is that you need to keep the temperature
high. Yup. If youre out in the open, if youre
not keeping the temperature high, the wrists, the arteries
will not stay dilated. It is very difficult indeed to bleed
out in the open even if you slit both wrists. Slitting one
wrist only much less blood loss and we have conflicting
accounts for the amount of blood found by the body. The most
reliable eye-witnesses, in my judgement, are probably the
paramedics who found him. They talked about comparatively
little blood loss. There is no solid evidence that any large,
that a lot of blood had left the body. There were no adequate
measurements of the amount of blood left in the major vessels,
in the heart and so on.
AJ: Now talking to you earlier today, its pretty
clear that they drug him up, then as hes dying slit
his wrist to create this scene. From your sources inside the
intelligence community, what really happened to Dr David Kelly?
MS: In my judgement, based on conversations with sources
and with medical experts and a great deal of work has been
done over this since the murder, he was probably murdered
by a combination of an injection, not through tablets, but
an intravenous injection of Dextropropoxythene and paracetamol,
the constituents of Co-Proxamol, and a muscle relaxant called
Succinylcholine. Now Succinylcholine is a favourite method
of assassinating people, its used by intelligence agencies,
particularly the French DGSE. Succinylcholine, although its
used therapeutically for treating [inaudible] incubation and
so on, can be lethal and in combination with the constituents
of Co-Proxamol, 30 milligrammes would probably have been a
lethal dose. The problem for someone investigating an assassination
by Succinylcholine is that it metabolises even after death
and you only pick up the metabolites. In other words its
one of those drugs that leaves no trace unless you have a
very expert pathologist who really knows what he or she is
AJ: Yeah all you can find is what it metabolises into.
You cannot find the original chemical.
MS: Exactly. So you have to look for the enzymes it
metabolises into. You wont find any trace of the original
AJ: Well its like with AIDS, you look for the
antibodies cos you cant find the virus.
MS: Well, very effectively, yeah. Its fairly
clear that the slash to the wrist was done to disguise the
puncture wound. Theres no puncture wound, but of course
the slash to the wrist wouldve disguised it. Now the
palm or face of the wrist, effectively the inside face of
the wrist, is a very popular method, you know anaesthesiologists
would use it to inject. Its quite realistic to suppose
that David Kelly was injected in the wrist with the muscle
relaxant and the Dextropropoxythene and the
AJ: Tell you what, weve got a break again. Well
come back and get into your source and take some calls.
AJ: Folks, this is very
very important, because Tony Blair is a minion of the
globalists. Hes the tool whos trying to
destroy British national sovereignty, to bring the British
people under the dominance of the un-elected unaccountable
European Union whether they like it or not. Hes
been promised the EU head-ship under a new expanded,
empowered EU, if he can get Britain into it.
He lied about the weapons of mass destruction. Its
clear that if Tony Blair was to have been exposed, that
would certainly hurt those in Europe that want to get
rid of British sovereignty.
( See ... EU
Cannot Be Serious)
And talking to Michael Shrimpton,
our guest, our intelligence expert who has his sources
over there in England. Talking to you earlier before
the show, you talked about your sources, the evidence
you have that it looks like that it was elements of
British intelligence or of the government using French
intelligence to go and do their dirty work which, by
the way, is a standard operation if intelligence agencies
are getting rid of some of their own people, they will
generally use a sister agency in a sister country. I
know this is very delicate, Michael, but can you go
over what you talked to me off-air about?
MS: Yes Alex. Firstly
I should make it clear that I have absolutely no
negation that anybody in either of the British intelligence
agencies, MI5, the Security Service, or MI6, The
Secret Intelligence Service, being involved. On
the contrary, my sources are telling me that both
services are extremely unhappy.
Now the indications are, now
you understand Im being cautious on air, but there
indications pointing towards an involvement by the
French external intelligence
agency the DGSE or Direction Générale
de la Sécurité Extérieure.
Murder Of Dr. David Kelly Parts One And Two - By Jim
AJ: But obviously theyve got a liaison within
the government, the British government. Theyve gotta
have someone authorising this, or are you saying its
just a rogue element wanting to get rid of somebody who could
mess up the EU?
MS: No, again Ive got to be obviously careful
on air, but the indications are that the tasking for the assassination
came from within the UK, but I cant name any individual
official or minister. The tasking was generated in the UK,
went to Paris, was then OKd in Paris, and on the information
available to me, the operational agency for the assassination
was DGSE. Now there are also indications, and Im again,
obviously Alex you appreciate Im expressing myself with
caution here, there are indications that DGSE, in order to
false-flag the assassination, should their team be discovered,
used Iraqi intelligence assets from the Iraqi Mukhabarat agency
that were available in Damascus after the fall of Baghdad.
And I have one source suggesting that an Iraqi team, thats
to say an ex-Mukhabarat team, recruited in Damascus with the
assistance of the Syrian intelligence operation, also the
Mukhabarat, were flown into Corsica in the seven days prior
to the assassination of David Kelly. Now the standard French
practice when they carry out assassinations is to take their
own team out. I am very doubtful that any of the people involved
directly in the assassination of David Kelly are still alive.
It would be highly unusual for the French to permit anyone
involved in the assassination for them to survive.
AJ: Well weve seen this in the past. Youve
had the big controversy the BBCs reported on about British
intelligence using Al-Qaeda individuals to try to kill Muammar
Gaddaffi. I mean this is a classic deal. Of course the Iraqis
were allies during the eighties and so a lot of these guys
were trained in the US, trained in England, trained in France,
and then bringing these assets back in.
MS: Yeah, that was a mess [laughs]. That was, er, we
could spend another hour on that, Alex. Whoever authorised
that operation did not know what they were doing. That was
just a total shambles.
AJ: Well, I mean wouldnt these Iraqis know that
they were doing this hit, that they were going to be in deep
trouble afterwards, or were they told `You dont have
MS: Not necessarily. They may not have worked for French
intelligence before. If youre offered a job by French
intelligence I would turn it down.
MS: Anybody approached by French intelligence to do
a hit, I would strongly advise them to turn it down or even
increase their life insurance. They were probably, I mean
assuming it was Iraqis and I cant be positive; there
are indications pointing towards an Iraqi involvement, I cant
be positive about DGSE. I have a range of sources as youve
said, and those sources point to Paris and they point towards
AJ: Now DGSE is the equivalent of an MI6, its
AJ: DGSU is internal?
MS: Its the DST, Direction de la Surveillance
du Territoire, which is the internal agency. And the DST are
internal, the DGSE are external. Lets just put it this
way, Alex, the operation has all the hallmarks of DGSE. British
intelligence, or my sources, are furious, theyre not
happy at all because David, after all, was a British intelligence
AJ: Well by the way, my webmaster, Paul Watson, has
talked to a major British news reporter who has talked directly
to British intelligence, and they said months ago Im
talking six months ago the same thing that you just
MS: Well that is interesting because that would be
almost certainly a different source to mine. It might be were
talking to the same people. One of the problems in the intelligence
world is `loop-back, something you think is independent
confirmation, may [chuckles] may turn out to be..
AJ: No, I understand. But I mean clearly from the circumstantial,
from the material evidence youve got murder, youve
got a cover-up, youve got a spin, youve got a
AJ: - Youve got him telling the US doctor, his
colleague, `If I dont shut up Im gonna be found
dead in the woods. Theyre gonna kill me. I mean
this is all public now, we have him saying `Theyre gonna
kill me and put me in the woods. You said that youve
talked to intelligence people whove said `Yeah, they
knew Kelly was about to get it, before he even died. Can you
elaborate on that?
MS: Yeah, the source that spoke to me on the 19th July,
after the assassination, you see this source was a friend
of David Kellys, so David was a friend of a friend.
This source obviously is not very happy. It didnt take
him five minutes to work out that this was murder, not suicide.
He then made enquiries and he established from other sources
that the murder was known about in advance, i.e. the murder
of David Kelly was known about within a section of Whitehall,
prior to the 17th July, and he was very unhappy. That source
came through to me and effectively Im acting as an interface
between the media and the intelligence community. It is not
possible for the intelligence community to do what Im
doing now and go on to a radio show and broadcast it around
AJ: Well you have an impeccable record and youve
been involved in a lot of high profile cases. Youve
testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
for our Senate here and you write for major intelligence journals.
Youve certainly impressed me, Mr Shrimpton, because
I study this stuff continually and youre just massively
knowledgeable, more knowledgeable in many areas than I am.
MS: If I could just say, I should correct, I didnt
testify before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
the briefing I gave was a closed briefing entirely.
AJ: Thats what I meant.
MS: The Senators on the Committee, I had the privilege
of meeting Senator Graham when he was chairman, just briefly,
Senator Graham might not even recall the meeting. We met briefly
when I happened to be in Congress on another matter. A very
AJ: Well just to be clear, sir, I know when you guys
testify its always public-
MS: (Yeah / Cough ?)
AJ: - here, most of what they do, obviously you know,
is behind doors, thats what I meant.
MS: Exactly, yeah. This is a, with the Senate Select
Committee on Intelligence, I was invited in to their operation
- theyre very nice people and this was a confidential
briefing on a case in which Id been involved, which
obviously I cant discuss on the air as a courtesy to
the guys and girls I briefed in. Very nice people.
AJ: Absolutely. Now I was just going over some of your
bio for folks. Now, as we sit here looking at this, for those
who dont understand why an element inside England would
want to use someone outside England, who would then use another
membrane between them and the hit-men, thats just standard
operating procedure. But why would the French be happy to
go along with getting rid of Kelly?
MS: Well, it would depend on the French assessment
of whether or not the government would be at risk. The French
would definitely want Tony Blair, Tony Blairs government
to remain in office. They would be very concerned indeed at
any suggestion that might risk the government. Theres
a very strong geo-political motive for the French retaining
their ally. Dont forget that the Blair government is
a close ally of President Chirac. There have been a series
of private meetings between Prime Minister Blair and President
Chirac since the [inaudible]
AJ: And theyre pushing the Euro, so they believe
that if Blair is in danger, the Euros in danger.
MS: Well, exactly. Tony Blair is the most high profile
politician in the UK committed to destroying the national
currency. And the French very much want Blair to remain in
office for geo-political reasons. Weve just had a very
unusual summit between Blair, Chirac and the German Chancellor
Schroeder. I have to be very cautious, Im not naming
Tony Blair as the person who generated the tasking for the
assassination. Indeed, I am quite comfortable that it wasnt
Tony Blair who put the tasking into Paris. Now, question marks:
What did he know and when did he know it? There I cant
be so confident.
AJ: Well obviously Tony Blairs a puppet. I mean
hes not running the entire mechanism of the government,
MS: Hes a puppet. Hes a puppet Prime Minister
anyway. Hes committed to the European Union. I mean
he takes his orders, like anyone says we should be in the
European Union, you take your orders from Brussels, because
thats what government from Brussels involves.
AJ: Exactly, so
MS: Thats the constitutional position. You know
European Community law is supreme, according to the European
Union, and it takes precedence over British law.
AJ: Yeah your Magna Cartas gone if that sucker
MS: [Chuckles] It does, these days, Alex. But thats
a broader issue. Youre right incidentally on the false
flagging. Im often called upon formally or informally
usually informally to deconstruct assassinations,
to look at a particular assassination and try and work out
whats happened. Basically, in counter-intelligence work
we would normally recognise eight methods of trying to disguise
First method is you would try and blame it on your opponents.
That was done in Sweden recently with the assassination of
Anna Lindh, the very nice Swedish Foreign Minister. An attempt
was made to blame that on opponents of Sweden joining the
You can blame it on a terrorist organisation. That was done
particularly with the IRA and the attempted assassination
of Margaret Thatcher; the assassination of the war hero, Airey
Neave, a Conservative MP, was blamed on the Irish National
Liberation Army. The terrorist organisation might carry out
the assassination, but in almost every case the terrorist
organisation is working for a government.
Third method of disguising assassinations, Alex, in my experience
is to false-flag them, where its blamed on another agency.
Now there are elements of false-flagging in the Kelly assassination,
because had the team which carried out the assassination been
discovered, clearly it could have been false-flagged via Baghdad,
and you know, wed have heard about three Iraqis in Oxfordshire,
if assuming it was Iraqis for the sake of argument, the blame
would then go to Baghdad and Paris would be let off the hook.
The Iranians tried that quite successfully with the attempted
assassination of the Pope, back in the early 1980s.
Then you have the lone-gunman theory. Now you guys are very
familiar with that, because youll recall that somebody
tried to blame Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of
President John Fitzgerald Kennedy-
AJ: Ha ha. Yeah.
MS: - an amusing suggestion to those of us know a little
bit more about that assassination than is in the public domain.
Weve had a lone-gunman, a classic example of a lone-gunman
assassination theory in Europe with the assassination of the
Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, which was blamed on a lone-gunman.
An explanation which doesnt carry much weight with me
since in the photographs of the assassin that I saw, there
was what appeared to me to be a very thin wire leading up
to an ear-piece. Normally, Alex, lone-gunmen dont run
around with radios and ear-pieces, particularly high-tech
AJ: Well it was the same thing with Yitzhak Rabin.
AJ: Im mean Netanyahus giving speeches
about `Somebody ought to get rid of this guy, and then
Rabins security steps back and they blow him away, I
MS: Well certainly respected commentators, Gerald [Gordon]
Thomas is one who would say that the Rabin assassination definitely
not down to a lone-gunman.
Then youve got illness. Now this is fairly rare. Its
difficult to fake an illness. It was done in the case of a
British politician, Hugh Gaitskill, who was opposed to Britain
joining the European Economic Community, and he came down
with a tropical disease in Moscow in the middle of winter.
Generally speaking you-
MS: [Laughs] It was spotted at the time as an assassination,
but MI5, although theyd brought in Porton Down, where
David Kelly worked incidentally, Porton Down were brought
in but Porton Down couldnt work out how the disease
which got Hugh Gaitskill, which is Lupus Disseminata, a very
nasty disease indeed - attacks the organs, very similar to
Ebola how this tropical disease had found its way to
Moscow, and they couldnt work out how, what the agent
was for getting the Lupus into Hugh Gaitskill. We now know
it was probably aerosol, but at the time that technology wasnt
known about in England.
Then youve got accident and weve, there are a
couple of interesting political assassinations in Zimbabwe,
of road accidents which I would put a question mark against.
Its less common to try and stage accidents, but its
not unknown. A friend of mine was nearly taken out in Argentina
a few years ago in what looked to me to be a slightly dubious
AJ: Well what about Princess Diana? She says `Prince
Charles is gonna kill me in a staged automobile accident
and then she dies.
MS: Well the Diana assassination is certainly, probably
the classic recent example of trying to make it look like
an accident. Yes.
AJ: Weve been having all these microbiologists
in government weapons programmes, will be in a, walking down
the street of the university, and a van jumps the rail, chases
them, runs them over then backs back over them, drives back
over them, and the police just go `An accident, a hit and
MS: [Laughs] Well if you want the truth of the Diana
assassination, the best people to talk to are the Israelis,
because they had Danny Yatom, whos a lovely guy by the
way, who was then head of Mossad in 97, who are really
nice people, Danny had teams, I think, on the entrance to
the Alma Tunnel and on the exit as well. Interesting man.
AJ: Tunnels where?
MS: This is the Alma Tunnel where Diana where Diana
was taken out.
AJ: Oh, yes. Yes.
MS: The seventh method of disguising assassinations
in my experience is to try and use a naturally occurring poison.
A favourite of intelligence agencies is Saxitoxin, which occurs
in shellfish so its possible, providing you can get
some shellfish into the stomach of the victim, Saxitoxin assassination
providing youve successfully disguised the puncture
wound, or you can find a method of getting the poison into
the body. You know, you can get away with that if youre
And then the final method is the one tried in the case of
David Kelly, that you try and make the murder look like suicide.
But its very difficult. In this case the attempt to
slash the wrist was pointless, because he was already dead.
And theres not enough blood. None of the witnesses,
in my judgement, reports enough blood consistent with him
bleeding out and the medical experts weve talked to,
and Ive been insisting on this, the medical experts
generally reckon that for this, youd be looking for
five pints, thats English pints of blood. Theres
nothing Ive seen that persuades me that more than a
pint was lost and thats about consistent with what youd
expect from transecting one ulnar artery. Completely transecting
it, it then retracts, clots, and you dont get, you get
surprisingly little bleeding from cutting your ulnar artery.
AJ: Well, sir, can we keep you a little bit into the
next hour, because I want to come back and go to Pat and Jim
and Lenny and others that have been patiently holding?
MS: Id be delighted to talk to you. I didnt
realise, Im sorry Ive been talking on and Ive
been keeping people on the phone. I apologise to them and
I look forward to talking to them.
AJ: Oh no, this is important information because this
shows the type of things that are going on in our world and
how the media tries to spin this, but why do you think the
media have been so willing to go along with the official government
story that its a suicide?
MS: Well, the political consequences, the mainstream
media in the UK are largely committed to UK membership of
the European Union, and my guess is that most of the newspapers
in the UK would be worried about the political consequences
of going public with any story suggesting David Kelly was
assassinated. And then youve got technical competence,
there arent that many good investigative journalists
in the UK. Its not that difficult to get the mainstream
media to buy an official version of events.
AJ: Yeah, its easy. Just [inaudible] the Fed
says this, just write it and go drink a beer.
AJ: Okay folks. Were back live here. And were
about to go to your calls, everybodys been holding patiently
for our guest. Going back to our guest, Michael Shrimpton,
national security lawyer, barrister in England. Michael?
AJ: Continuing with what we were discussing and just
briefly recapping, you have a source who, in intelligence,
talked to his other sources and it was widely known in intelligence
that there was an order to get rid of Kelly, even before he
MS: My source learned after the assassination that
others in Whitehall were aware of the assassination in advance,
yes. And that source had spoken to, obviously he was a friend
of David Kellys, knew him well, had worked with him,
and clearly once his friend was found dead in a wood, made
investigations and when he made investigations he discovered
that this assassination was known about in advance. Yes.
AJ: And he told, and this is in the Associated Press,
BBC, you name it, he told an American doctor who was on the
team with him in Iraq, he said `If I dont shut up about
this, Im gonna end up dead in the woods.
MS: Yeah. There was also an interesting conversation
with David Broucher who was formerly British Ambassador in
Prague in the Czech Republic, along similar lines. That, David
Broucher I think was a witness, in fact, to the Hutton Inquiry.
David Kelly worked, I never had the privilege of meeting him,
I would have loved to have met him, my friend certainly worked
with him and knew him. David worked very closely with the
United States intelligence and worked very closely with Sergeant
Mai Pederson in particular, but I get the impression he was
very highly thought of in the US intelligence community as
AJ: Was this done by the pro-EU crowd? The globalists,
I would call them? To put out a chilling effect into everybody
in intelligence to keep your mouths shut?
MS: Broadly speaking, yes. Now motive is another question
altogether. Its tolerably clear, one cant be certain,
tolerably clear that he was taken out in order to prevent
him talking. Now what is unclear is whether he was taken out
because there was concern he was about to acquire intelligence
that might be highly damaging, or taken out because he had
acquired it and was about to talk to the media. We know there
was concern about the extent of his media contacts, I mean
AJ: He was also a microbiologist -
AJ: - and theres been a whole bunch of those
dying around the world. Lets take a call. Pat in Indiana,
thanks for holding. Youre on the air with our guest,
Pat: Yes, this is a little off the subject, but it has to
AJ: Maam, you dont have your radio on,
do you? Or a speakerphone or something? Cos Im not gonna
be able to talk to you if you dont turn it off.
Pat: He did.
AJ: Okay go ahead.
Pat: Okay, its about a couple
of subjects I want to air
AJ: Im gonna have to go ahead and put her on
hold. Im sorry Maam, but somethings wrong
with your phone or you got your radio on. Lets try to
bring her back up one more time and then Ill have to
let her go. Pat, go ahead.
Pat: This is on a couple of
I dont know whats wrong because we turned our
AJ: Okay, its alright. Go ahead.
Pat: Okay. This is on a couple of subjects,
one from Earlham College and one from the Town Hall meeting
I had with Mike [inaudible] on Friday.
AJ: Maam, is this concerning our guest.
AJ: Because you told us that you wanted to talk to
our guest. Im gonna have to put you on hold.
MS: Nice to talk to you anyway, Pat.
AJ: Yeah, nice to talk to you. You know were
about to break and start the next hour and then well
sort out whats going on with the calls and well
get to em. Lets um, I know theres a whole bunch
of calls here for you, well try to sort em out
and find out whats going on as we talk to our guest,
Michael Shrimpton, a national intelligence barrister in England.
I bet you see all kinds of just amazing stuff in your job.
MS: I do, yes [laughs]. Not all that I can talk about
on the air. And I meet some interesting people. And I had
a very interesting visit to Israel in the middle of last year,
looking at the new security fence being built.
AJ: Alright, well, I hear the music, so that means
weve got to go ahead and break. And when we get back
and start the third hour well go straight to your calls,
folks. You wanna talk to our guest, its 1-800 259 9231.
1-800 259 9231. Infowars.com.
AJ: Alright, my friends. Now into the third hour. Were
talking to Michael Shrimpton, national security barrister
in England with his intelligence sources concerning the murder
of Dr David Kelly. And British people are very suspicious
as are many other folks around the world. And more and more
is coming out. Lets go ahead and go to Jim in Illinois.
Jim, thanks for holding, youre on the air with our guest.
Jim: I have two quick questions. Mr
Shrimpton, what is David Kellys wife saying about his
MS: Janice Kelly hi Jim Janice Kelly
accepts that it was suicide, at least thats her official
Jim: Next question. Why didnt
the British, or the American or the Israeli intelligence assassinate
Saddam Hussein before the war?
MS: Well thats a big question, probably better
directed to intelligence officials. Assassination is very
- Im opposed to assassinations in principle, one of
the reasons why Im outraged by David Kellys assassination
assassination is a double-edged sword and I think had
we gone in and taken out Saddam Hussein, that would have rebounded
on both Britain and America very quickly. So I think the call
not to assassinate him was probably well made. Its also
more difficult to assassinate politicians like Saddam Hussein
than first appears. You remember the CIAs farcical efforts
to try to get rid of Fidel Castro.
MS: They had a go for several years and they didnt
get anywhere close to assassinating him with exploding cigars
and what-have-you. I would say the call not to take Saddam
Hussein out was right. The danger with assassinating somebody
like Saddam Hussein, you build up inside Iraq popular support
for his regime
AJ: Yeah, you turn him into a martyr and also itll
cause a revolution even before you get there and you wont
control, kind of, the way the balls break. Thanks for the
call. Thats a really good question. Anything else Jim?
Jim: No thankyou.
MS: Great to talk to you, Jim.
AJ: Ive got a question.
MS: Great state, Illinois. Been there.
AJ: [Chuckles] Ive got a question for you, Michael.
Where is all this going as more and more doctors and people
come forward, and as you come forward and say its clear
that he was murdered. I mean where does all this go for Tony
MS: Well there are indications that he may be preparing
to resign. Hes denied officially over the weekend that
hes been planning to resign, which is an indication
that he is. Never believe anything until its officially
denied. A number of key advisors have bailed out. Alastair
Campbell, another key advisor, Philip Gould, has just been
offered a peerage, which is a form of retirement we have in
England that you dont have in the United States
AJ: Michael Meacher, months ago.
MS: Michael Meacher, yes. There are now calls, Michael
Meachers just issued a call, hes former government
nice chap former government minister. Michael
has issued a call over the last weekend, calling on him to
go. There are indications that he is on his way out, but you
know, its up to him. Or up to his party.
AJ: Well that would certainly be good. I mean have
you ever had a Prime Minister this bad?
MS: Well, thats a political question. The answer
is `probably, but I cant remember when. Its
a close toss-up between Tony Blair, John Major and Lord North
who lost the American colonies, but from your point of view
Lord North was probably quite good to have in Downing Street.
AJ: [Laughs] Thats funny.
MS: Neville Chamberlain. I think that, without being
disrespectful to my Prime Minister on the air, I think its
a close call between Tony Blair and Neville Chamberlain.
MS: You have to, you know, you have to, you could have
ten different politicians and economists and military strategists
sit around a table and come up with ten different answers
as to whether Neville Chamberlain surrendered more of Europe
than Tony Blair, and whether Tony Blair surrendered more to
France and Germany than Neville Chamberlain did. Its
a close run thing.
AJ: Well I think its clearly Tony Blair if he
gets what he wants.
MS: Yes, I had the, I have to say having met Tony Blair,
hes not, hes quite a pleasant, personable individual.
Hes not a monster when you meet him.
AJ: Well they said that about Adolf Hitler too. Yknow
weve got a break. Well come right back and well
go to Lenny Bloom whos been on this story, and well
also talk to David in Texas and a few other callers for our
guest, and then well get to Bob and Ron and others,
and a bunch of other key news items. Stay with us.
AJ: Just an absolutely amazing and riveting interview
over the last hour and eight minutes with our guest - national
security barrister, lawyer, who has consulted with the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence here in the US, and given
speeches, and consulted around the world, and writes for major
terrorism journals - going over well, just a lot of interesting
facts for us. Like usually if youve got some type of
terrorist assassination, terrorists killing people, theres
usually a government behind them using them as a go-between.
Oh weve discovered that here in our research too. And
going over the evidence of how Dr David Kelly was killed,
and the elements inside governments that did it and why. Lets
take a few calls. Well go to David and Ian and a few
others here in a few minutes, but right now lets go to Lenny
Bloom whos been a guest on this show before and has
a website CloakandDagger.com [CloakandDagger.ca]. I know last
week they got some rumblings of this story and put it out.
Lenny, whats on your mind?
Lenny: Well welcome, thanks for having
me back, Alex, youre doing a tremendous yeomans
service job. You know the pilots who fly these assassination
teams around the world dont have a public responsibility
to tell the media, tell the truth, tell people. But the media
has a core responsibility. Yknow these things, theres
so many people involved that Ive known and been a part
of as a spy-pilot over the years. This thing with Dr Kelly
is something thats interesting, ever since the Duke
of Edinburgh said he wanted to become a deadly virus and come
back and be reincarnated we have kept a biochemical doctors
death-list, for good reason. The Duke doesnt want to
be suspected or blamed for his actions. Its really interesting
and clear whats going on here, its right in front
of everybodys nose.
AJ: Okay Lenny, do you have any questions or comments
for our guest?
Lenny: Yeah, I just want to say thanks
for coming out, I think thats great that youre
starting to dig into the whole thing. I think Kelly was number
fifty on the death-list, and I think thats wonderful.
AJ: Lenny, let me ask our guest that. Are you familiar,
sir, that theres been all over the western world, Australia,
Russia, western Europe, England, the US, top bio-weapons scientists
being murdered and that Kelly just so happened to be one more
on that list?
MS: Well Im aware of an unusually high percentage
of microbiologists going south and its put it
this way, its attracted my interest. I think David Kelly
wasnt taken out as part of a systematic campaign to
take out WMD scientists.
Lenny: I didnt say that. Hes
part of a death-list though and there may be different reason
MS: Hi Lenny, good to hear from you. You mentioned
you were a spy pilot. What planes were you flying?
Lenny: Well Im rather grounded
MS: What did you used to fly?
Lenny: I flew everything from F18s
to F14s to Cessna 172s to Bell 206s and
my student became Air Force One helicopter for ten years.
Hes a three star general.
MS: I wish I could introduce you to a client of mine
who once flew an aeroplane called the Lockheed U-2A over the
Soviet Union with a guy called Gary Powers.
AJ: Well thanks for the call, Lenny. I appreciate that.
And thanks for all your work.
MS: Great to talk to you, Lenny.
AJ: Yeah, lets talk to David in Texas. David,
youre on the air. Go ahead.
David: Hello sir?
AJ: Yes, go ahead.
MS: Hi David.
David: Hi, thank you for taking my
call. I have a quick question on the media. I know that youre
involved in intelligence, but like in our country we dont
see a lot of programming on Tel-Aviv and Palestinian television,
and I know they present a very, you know er, I dont
know er, ethical code of fatwa and things of that such, and
we dont [inaudible] a lot of that, and Im curious
AJ: Okay, Im trying to understand exactly what
youre saying. Boil it down for us.
David: Well, the promotion of dying
for Allah is a shown thing on TV in Tel-Aviv and the media
doesnt really focus on that here in the United States.
Im wondering what your view is on that and do you see
that in Europe?
David: Ill go ahead and listen.
MS: Okay David. Well always a pleasure to talk to somebody
from whereabouts in Texas are you from?
AJ: I believe hes gone.
MS: Oh hes gone. Well let me answer his question
as a courtesy to him. Im not very impressed of media
coverage of the middle-east generally. I do subscribe to a
very interesting service called MEMRI, the Middle East Media
Research Institute, and some of the stuff they come up with
on what is broadcast on mainstream media in Egypt and Saudi
Arabia concerning Israel is just shocking. Its like
the 1930s all over again. Very, very disturbing stuff.
So Im not very impressed with mainstream coverage of
the middle-east, and that was partly why I went to the middle-east
in June, a little fact-finding tour. [Inaudible]
AJ: You were there with the IDF on the ground, what
did you learn?
MS: Well I was very impressed with the way the IDF
ran check-points. I talked to a check-point commander in Jenin,
for example, very impressed with what I saw; very impressed
with the security fence which is clearly having an impact
in those sectors of the West Bank where its been erected.[Inaudible]
AJ: Well I know this. We sure need one of those on
the southern border of the US.
AJ: And I want one. That things beautiful.
MS: Well I think your southern border is a bit porous
and as weve seen on 9/11, porous borders can present
dangers. And er
AJ: Well Im not kidding, Ive literally
seen photos of that thing and I start salivating on it.
AJ: Because just the raping and killing and robbery
and Mexican troops and killing federal officers, and our news
doesnt even report on it. I mean it is bedlam on our
MS: Your southern border is not particularly well protected,
with every respect to the guys and girls who are down there
protecting it. But, no, they need more resources and er
AJ: But back to the IDF, Im sorry for interrupting.
MS: Well Im a big fan of the IDF. I was very
impressed meeting and talking with erm, from soldiers up to
generals. I think the IDF are doing a good job. I think the
Israelis know far more about counter-terrorism than we do
in Britain or in the United States. My general line with Israel
is I think, we in the west, the rest of the west Israel
is part of the west we need to get off the Israelis
back and let them go and do the job. They do know what theyre
AJ: Well certainly they know how to build a fence and
I wish we had one of those.
MS: [Laughs] The fence is very impressive. Its
more than a fence of course, its a, youve got
a ditch, youve got a roadway that allows regular patrolling,
easy access to any terrorist incursion, good surveillance,
some good, high-tech stuff there. The security barrier is
a very impressive development.
AJ: Yeah. Lets go ahead and now and, whos
up next in line here, Stephanie? Ian in Canada, youre
on the air with our guest. Go ahead.
Ian: Thanks Alex. I wanted to ask your
guest, I wanted to explore the occultic implications of David
Kellys death and by illustration I want to refer to
a case that he may be familiar with Air Marshall Sir
Peter Horsley - they tried to take him out like Diana, with
rigged brakes on his BMW in the mid-80s, just between
Amesbury Circle and Stonehenge, about 660 yards, if you can
believe it, into his drive west along the motorway. There
was that occultic association and what Im wondering
is because David Kelly, you reported, probably died on July
17th which is right in the middle of that high holiday they
celebrate at Bohemian Grove, Alex. That was the date that
AJ: Ill tell you what, let me bring this up to
him. I dont know if hes aware of it but Skull
and Bones, admittedly a weird, occult organisation; Bohemian
Grove, I snuck into it, that was on national British television,
the footage I shot a few years ago. Its also aired here.
In some of these killings, they do seem to do it in a ritualistic
fashion; that was brought up with Princess Diana. Do you want
to get into that or is that too
MS: No. I dont see, with respect to you in Canada
- I dont know where abouts in Canada you are, but its
a great country I dont see any occult relationship
with the Kelly assassination at all. Im not familiar
with, I dont know Sir Peter Horsley and Im not
familiar with that. Was that an attempted assassination?
Ian: He claims that he was being used
to take somebody else out, but they rigged his BMW and I believe
AJ: See heres the problem. We cant solve
this other stuff in that we cant prove, Ian. Then when
the news goes and listens to this interview its, you
know, discussions of you know, things we cant prove.
Thats the problem.
Ian: Well Alex, if the guest wants
to explore this, the book that Sir Peter wrote is `Voices
From Another Room and hed find it in the UK.
AJ: Okay. Well thank you for that. I really appreciate
MS: I know plenty of air marshalls, Im sure I
can find an air marshall who knows or knew Sir Peter.
AJ: Alright. And I guess up next is Wayne. Wayne, where
are you calling us from? Okay, Wayne is gone. Lets go
ahead and go to Bob in California. Bob go ahead. Youre
on the air Bob.
Bob: Im kinda sorry Im
not on topic today. I wanted to call you about the Diebold
machines that our county is using on us for touch-tone voting.
AJ: Yknow what, Im gonna put you on hold
and well get to you coming up in the next segment. I
MS: Good morning Bob. Thats an interesting subject
but not one on which I could give any qualified comment.
AJ: [Laughs] Well weve got so many callers here
its hard to figure out whos calling in on subject.
It would be nice if they did call in on subject.
MS: Youre a popular guy, Alex, and I can understand
having listened to your show why youve got a lot of
AJ: Ah, well its great. A lot of great people
out there. Weve obviously got to have you back on because
youre a very intelligent, very informative person because
theres not many people I get on the show who end up
knowing more about intelligence matters, because I study it,
pretty much perpetually. Youve brought out some very
important information and I really want to thank you for coming
on the show Mr Shrimpton.
MS: Alex, its been my pleasure and a privilege.
AJ: And for those that just joined us, again, Michael
Shrimpton, a national intelligence lawyer or barrister in
England, and he writes for major intelligence journals and
has consulted around the world on intelligence matters and
he was coming on, exposing the murder of Dr David Kelly. Do
you think those that were responsible will ever be brought
to justice sir?
MS: I dont think they will. I think those immediately
responsible are already dead. My guess is they were taken
out within 24-48 hours of the assassination. I suspect those
involved in tasking the assassination will be dealt with informally
and will be given valuable guidance and the public will not
get to know about it, and my guess is that the coroner, Nick
Gardiner, who has jurisdiction to hold an inquest will not
hold an inquest. That means no jury will ever enquire into
the reasons for David Kelly dying.
AJ: Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well
be back folks.